Perceived Innocence of WF on racism; Lus and Asian feminism


  • Eastern Sunrise

    I agree that in every ethnic/racial group, women are working hard to close the gap of gender disparity.
    However, I feel strange that people would view women of any race as victims under whatever framework.

    For example, WF as members of white community, can claim innocence of racism because they are the victims of sexism imposed by WM. If anything regarding race relation went wrong, it must be the fault of WM. Nevertheless, I think sexism and racism are problems of different dimensions; the only thing these two issues have in common is any person believes in equal right should fight for.

    I agree that negative stereotype, social engineering are mostly planned and executed by WM, but this does not justify “the perceived innocent” position of WF in racism. A WF can be victim in sexism and racist against people of color at the same time. For men of color, this is true in especially dating scene; arguably, AM have it the worst in some areas within Anglosphere. I myself as a FOB AM have very deep feeling after trying out local dating market in a very white region.

    People who advocate innocence of WF explained that WF turn back on men of color in dating scene exclusively due to oppression imposed by WM. I believe this is to some extent true, but nowhere close to the major reason. The thing is WF buy and help propagate those negative stereotypes on men of color. It’s hard to take anti-miscegenation still socially exists against AM in the 21st century. Upon the racial disparity, I don’t see any clear pattern that WF show more empathy to POC than WM.

    At the end of the day, both WM and WF are still whites. We can still communicate with white individuals who are interested in struggles of women of color and men of color, respectively. However, it’s not realistic to expect them to fight for us. Most of them simply don’t see much benefit to treat us better. Indifference would be the best gift from most of them. Ones who demonstrate mild attitude are already appreciated; it’s hard for us to ask more.

    In comparison, women of color fall victim to both racism and sexism. Although AF practically enjoy more flexible mobility than AM in western society, this mobility derived from different degrees of racism imposed on AF and AM; one group is fetishized while the other group is emasculated. But frankly speaking, AF still suffer from sexism imposed by men of any race from time to time. Women of color, especially AF, are really the ones I should demonstrate full support.

    Claiming Lus are majority of AF is simply not true; I don’t wish to magnify their importance, Lus are just pedestrians who may badmouth Asian (men) community sometimes. The harm on AZN caused by Lus are way less than that caused by white society. More controversially, I even don’t have much bad feelings about Lus compared to about WF. For me, Lus are simply soulless follower of WF, aiming to gain acceptance from white society. Most AF are lovely ones who have common visions of life with AM, and are worthy of spending future together. This is the argument from the bottom of my heart which I hesitated to tell in reddit. I am all for equality. Feminism is well-intentioned movement aiming for gender equality. I believe it’s not a zero-sum game between Asian feminists and AM; gender equality is not contradictory to Asian well-being. Truly, some AF throw themselves to WM in the name of feminism; but they are not representative in the demographics of AF. I believe Asian feminists have better chance to reach a win-win situation when cooperating with AM than with WM. Please acknowledge AM are born to cherish AF. How clueless most WM are to AF is just like how clueless most AM are to WF. Although I respect the liberty of interracial relationship, it should be initiated out of mutual respect and common interest rather than racial fetish or colonial patriarchy. Due to some reasons, the difference lies in AF are more tolerant to men from different culture than WF. I actually appreciate this quality and see AF as more open-minded than WF, although factor of social status should be taken into account.

    Last but not the least, I don’t believe liberal whites are the greatest asset for any pan-Asian movement. The greatest assets are AF and AM who are willing to dig into the problem, speak out, work together to find a solution, and hand-in-hand build a better future. The greatest assets are Asians, despite most are not very aware of social issues, work hard to build the safety net for their families at the same time ensure the prosperity of Asian community. We might be minority in America, but we are majority in the world. Asians for the win.

    Excuse me for my rant. This is anger section, isn’t it?


  • Eastern Sunrise

    @natalie_ng said in Perceived Innocence of WF on racism; Lus and Asian feminism:

    You raise an interesting point I never thought of. Extreme right-winged Asian families (the same ones supporting Trump, I suspect) potentially producing a large chunk of Lus and Chans. However, I would think very liberal Asian families that over-emphasize other minorities’ wellbeing over ours would probably have the same effect, except instead of producing white-worshipping Lus/Chans, they produce black/hispanic-worshipping Lus/Chans. Although I guess you could argue the former is worst than the latter since the latter, at least, is aware of the existence of racism.

    I think we can add one group here. “Liberal” Asians whose ideology is aligned with liberal whites (“color-blindness”), who think liberal whites/WF feminists are the greatest asset of Asian movements; they actually account for larger percentage than those empathize blacks or Hispanics. They closely follow white Democrats and emphasize cooperation with left-wing whites. Definitely a dead end. Plenty of them on reddit.


  • administrators

    @natalie_ng said in Perceived Innocence of WF on racism; Lus and Asian feminism:

    WMs may not be AS disturbed by WFs going with BMs as they are when WFs go with AMs but they still get pretty pissed. I’ve seen hundreds of comments online by bitter WMs bashing Heidi Klum continuously when she married Seal.

    Sure, but compare the out dating/out marriage rates. They only suffer 5% and it’s often crap-tier wf. Asians suffer 50-60% marriage and it’s across the spectrum. That doesn’t even account for dating/sex. WM violence/policing, on the whole, works to keep WF loyal.


  • Empress of War

    @CivilRightsAZN

    How to raise Asian daughters who have loyalty, can prioritize benefit of Asian community

    Possible cure of Lus can be publicizing Lus behaviour and make it a well-defined problem. More Lus are to be exposed and analyzed.

    Yes, I would agree with this. Using Lus as case studies on how NOT to raise your daughters as well as exposing them may help stigmatize them in the long run.

    they went further to advocate feminism against Asian in the West.

    Yes, they use feminism much to our expense; painting our entire community as backwards, anti-liberal, too traditional, etc…which further gives liberals more reason to NOT stick up for us like they do other minorities.

    Household of alt-right Asians can be a major source of producing Lus and Chans.

    You raise an interesting point I never thought of. Extreme right-winged Asian families (the same ones supporting Trump, I suspect) potentially producing a large chunk of Lus and Chans. However, I would think very liberal Asian families that over-emphasize other minorities’ wellbeing over ours would probably have the same effect, except instead of producing white-worshipping Lus/Chans, they produce black/hispanic-worshipping Lus/Chans. Although I guess you could argue the former is worst than the latter since the latter, at least, is aware of the existence of racism.

    @secondstrike

    it’s not an equal comparison with Am though. Blacks do have some protection from society, but you guys do have a point.

    WMs may not be AS disturbed by WFs going with BMs as they are when WFs go with AMs but they still get pretty pissed. I’ve seen hundreds of comments online by bitter WMs bashing Heidi Klum continuously when she married Seal.


  • Huangdi

    Asian feminism may be a cause of gender quality back in Asia, but in the West it is lumped to white supremacy to a large extent; plenty of “Asian feminists” (or should I just call them “Lus”?) live in the West date WM, live under a system of white oppression but only attack Asian community.

    This the key point. We should in our full right support Asian feminism in ASIA where it is not corrupted by White supremacy - and if it does become corrupted - we should obviously stop supporting it.

    But in the west, Asian feminism has been fully corrupted by White supremacy from within.


  • administrators

    @CivilRightsAZN

    It’s probably a good time to write out that parenting guide that I’ve been wanting to write. Will need help though since I’m an impostor without kids lol.

    re: WF with BM

    It’s not an equal comparison with Am though. Blacks do have some protection from society, but you guys do have a point.


  • Eastern Sunrise

    @natalie_ng

    WFs date BMs frequently, regardless of WM disapproval.

    This is the fact I need to raise if someone claims any victimhood or innocence of WF on the sexual oppression of men of color.

    As an AF, I appreciate your sentiment. But I would advise you to still be picky with which AFs you choose to support. AFs suffer from sexism but MOSTLY from WM sexism (the fetishization) and yet, many AFs still choose to defend and uphold the idea that WMs are “perfect beings.” These are definitely the ones you should avoid supporting.

    This is true.
    I found a relevant academic article which is quite long “WHITE SEXUAL IMPERIALISM: A THEORY
    OF ASIAN FEMINIST JURISPRUDENCE”. It indeed discussed WM sexism on AF. However, Lus are left undiscussed.
    http://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1243&context=crsj

    I agree that whites should be the main group to attack but let’s not let Lus off the hook too easily. They’re the annoying toy dogs that whites carry around that will come to its owners’ (whites) defense whenever they feel their toy dog status is being challenged/questioned.

    I believe precaution is better than cure. How to raise Asian daughters who have loyalty, can prioritize benefit of Asian community (rather than Lus and PAAs). This has to do with their upbringings and social circles. Raised by Westernphile parents? Surrounded by mostly Beckys in the school and after school? This can be a different topic. Possible cure of Lus can be publicizing Lus behaviour and make it a well-defined problem. More Lus are to be exposed and analyzed.

    ou are so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so sweet <3 But this is precisely why I’m afraid AMs like you will get hurt badly in the long run because despite what you want to believe deep down inside, MOST Asian feminists hate our culture and our people. That is why they turned to “feminism” in the first place. They want to escape us; you, me, everything that reminds them of their Asianness. They call our culture “misogynistic” and “controlling” to justify their distancing away from us. And in doing so, they help whites confirm what they always thought AMs are; “misogynistic”. This is why I don’t think it’s a good idea to let Lus off the hook. They may not be the source of the problem, but in some ways, they’re a symptom that cycles back to the source and replenishes it. Think of it this way. Whites = virus. Lus = fever.

    I already went through the phase of psychotic break. Currently I am still adjusting my mind to get away with cognitive dissonance. I am a FOB, it’s hard to take cultural shock and suffer of Asian community, esp. AM at once. The problem of most visible Asian feminists is not only they dismissed the priority of Asian, but also they went further to advocate feminism against Asian in the West. They are truly “progressive Anti-Asians”, aka PAA. I admit Lus play a destructive role in Asian movement, and can be as hostile as whites. Lus are powerful tool that work for whites, causing further racial oppression against AZN, AM specifically.

    would agree that woke AMs and AFs only have each other to count on. I’ve never been an advocate of allying with the one group that oppresses us the most (and abused their global power on everyone else as well). But the keyword is WOKE Ams and Afs. Painfully unaware/brainwashed AMs and AFs who shill too much for other POC (like LLAG and Jenn Fang) or buy too much into alt-right rhetoric (Asian Trump supporters and Tila Tequila) causes just as much damage to our community as whites do.

    Yes, progressive Anti-Asians are so harmful that is worthy of confrontation. Household of alt-right Asians can be a major source of producing Lus and Chans. But even their progressive counterparts in Pacific Coast and Tri-state (NY, NJ, PA) are largely unwoke. I remembered you said “AMs are disrespected from the Right, and received no protection from the Left.” How to wake up AZN from both sides, while eliminating influence of Lus and Chans, is the first brick wall in front of pan-Asian movements.


  • Eastern Sunrise

    @secondstrike

    No. You should provide conditional support. Unconditional support is where Asian men screwed up. Do you notice how we elevate sellouts like Amy Tan, who made a name for herself by spreading anti-Asian culture, anti-Asian male, and pro afwm lies? These types of anti-Asian/white worshippers should be punished but their ilk are held up as “visionaries”. That’s our key problem. We are too nice. We are too tolerant. We do not punish those who harm us. It’s the lack of consequences for anti-Asian/pro-white behavior that has allowed this problem to spiral out of control.

    Yes, but not all AF, only those who are pro-Asian and pro-Am. That’s a key distinction. Anti-Asian, anti-Am, pro-white, pro-WM are not part of this community. The latter group have been key to our destruction.

    Thank you. I think I missed some key points. I definitely disagree with what Lus like Amy Tan did to the community, and would not support such behavior. Asian feminism may be a cause of gender equality back in Asia, but in the West it is lumped to white supremacy to a large extent; plenty of “Asian feminists” (or should I just call them “Lus”?) live in the West date WM, live under a system of white oppression but only attack Asian community. Unbearable.


  • Empress of War

    I agree that negative stereotype, social engineering are mostly planned and executed by WM, but this does not justify “the perceived innocent” position of WF in racism. A WF can be victim in sexism and racist against people of color at the same time.

    Definitely agree with this notion. Many WFs, despite fighting to be seen on equal footing as their male counterpart, do not hesitate to use their white privilege at the expense of WOC, i.e. Ghost in the Shell where a white actress snags a role that should’ve gone to an AF without any hesitation and not even a single hint of apology. Not to mention, there have been numerous cases of WFs acting violently/assaulting WOC as well. Tbh, the way I sometimes interpret their fighting to be on equal footing with WM is their way of saying they want every single ounce of that WM privilege and that WM global power, hence why I’m extremely cynical of white feminism most of the time. There may be some white feminists who truly care about POC/WOC, but they’re far and few in between.

    People who advocate innocence of WF explained that WF turn back on men of color in dating scene exclusively due to oppression imposed by WM.

    WFs date BMs frequently, regardless of WM disapproval.

    At the end of the day, both WM and WF are still whites. We can still communicate with white individuals who are interested in struggles of women of color and men of color, respectively. However, it’s not realistic to expect them to fight for us. Most of them simply don’t see much benefit to treat us better.

    Exactly. I don’t expect either WM or WF to fight for me. It would make little sense for them to anyhow since they’re the ones who are oppressing me to begin with, so for them to fight for me would be asking them to turn down that white privilege that make their lives so much easier than the rest of ours.

    But frankly speaking, AF still suffer from sexism imposed by men of any race from time to time. Women of color, especially AF, are really the ones I should demonstrate full support.

    As an AF, I appreciate your sentiment. But I would advise you to still be picky with which AFs you choose to support. AFs suffer from sexism but MOSTLY from WM sexism (the fetishization) and yet, many AFs still choose to defend and uphold the idea that WMs are “perfect beings.” These are definitely the ones you should avoid supporting.

    The harm on AZN caused by Lus are way less than that caused by white society.

    Lol, I don’t know about that…Lus spread a lot of harmful lies about AMs/our culture and because Lus and AMs are the same race, everyone (non-Asians) perceive that as Lus KNOWING what they’re talking about when it comes to AMs, when in reality, they’re just spouting out lies/stereotypes that white society has fed them. I agree that whites should be the main group to attack but let’s not let Lus off the hook too easily. They’re the annoying toy dogs that whites carry around that will come to its owners’ (whites) defense whenever they feel their toy dog status is being challenged/questioned.

    Most AF are lovely ones who have common visions of life with AM, and are worthy of spending future together. This is the argument from the bottom of my heart which I hesitated to tell in reddit.
    Please acknowledge AM are born to cherish AF.

    You are so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so sweet <3 But this is precisely why I’m afraid AMs like you will get hurt badly in the long run because despite what you want to believe deep down inside, MOST Asian feminists hate our culture and our people. That is why they turned to “feminism” in the first place. They want to escape us; you, me, everything that reminds them of their Asianness. They call our culture “misogynistic” and “controlling” to justify their distancing away from us. And in doing so, they help whites confirm what they always thought AMs are; “misogynistic”. This is why I don’t think it’s a good idea to let Lus off the hook. They may not be the source of the problem, but in some ways, they’re a symptom that cycles back to the source and replenishes it. Think of it this way. Whites = virus. Lus = fever. The virus causes the fever which heats you up and causes you to want to take off some clothes because you feel boiling hot. But what happens when you do that is that you create the perfect environment (cooler temperature) that will help replicate even MORE viruses. See where I’m going with this? Whites spread bullshit lies about AMs. Lus believe those lies and uphold them. Whites can then go, “See??? Your women agree! So we’re right after all!” and it’s a never ending vicious cycle of attacks/lies/abuse hurled at AMs. This is why we have to stomp out BOTH the Lus and the whites.

    Last but not the least, I don’t believe liberal whites are the greatest asset for any pan-Asian movement. The greatest assets are AF and AM who are willing to dig into the problem, speak out, work together to find a solution, and hand-in-hand build a better future.

    I would agree that woke AMs and AFs only have each other to count on. I’ve never been an advocate of allying with the one group that oppresses us the most (and abused their global power on everyone else as well). But the keyword is WOKE Ams and Afs. Painfully unaware/brainwashed AMs and AFs who shill too much for other POC (like LLAG and Jenn Fang) or buy too much into alt-right rhetoric (Asian Trump supporters and Tila Tequila) causes just as much damage to our community as whites do.


  • administrators

    @CivilRightsAZN said in Perceived Innocence of WF on racism; Lus and Asian feminism:

    I agree that negative stereotype, social engineering are mostly planned and executed by WM, but this does not justify “the perceived innocent” position of WF in racism. A WF can be victim in sexism and racist against people of color at the same time.

    Well, wf are not innocent for sure, but of the white genders, they’re more or less following the program setup by wm and by doing so, keeping the oppression of POC going. The source is wm.

     

    The thing is WF buy and help propagate those negative stereotypes on men of color.

    So do AF and they grew up with us and they know better. Like rumors, the problem with stereotypes is that they’re easy to create, but hard to dispel. They are extremely effective forms of mind control.

     

    Women of color, especially AF, are really the ones I should demonstrate full support.

    No. You should provide conditional support. Unconditional support is where Asian men screwed up. Do you notice how we elevate sellouts like Amy Tan, who made a name for herself by spreading anti-Asian culture, anti-Asian male, and pro afwm lies? These types of anti-Asian/white worshippers should be punished but their ilk are held up as “visionaries”. That’s our key problem. We are too nice. We are too tolerant. We do not punish those who harm us. It’s the lack of consequences for anti-Asian/pro-white behavior that has allowed this problem to spiral out of control.

     

    Claiming Lus are majority of AF is simply not true; I don’t wish to magnify their importance, Lus are just pedestrians who may badmouth Asian (men) community sometimes. The harm on AZN caused by Lus are way less than that caused by white society.

    No. Lus are the worst anti-Asian male forces around because they legitimize the castration of Asian men. When media spreads lies about Asian men, they could fight them with us. Instead they reinforce it with their words and bodies. The Asian community is dying the same way entire empires died due to traitors from within. Lus cannot be helped, we need to focus our energies on Asians who have not been brainwashed and build a solid base from there.

     

    More controversially, I even don’t have much bad feelings about Lus compared to about WF. For me, Lus are simply soulless follower of WF, aiming to gain acceptance from white society.

    This is backwards. You should expect more loyalty from your own kind. You ought to be far more angry at their betrayal. The stats are extremely bad. The AF born in America marry-out close to or exceeding 50%. Our community is only sustained by fresh Asian migrants.

     

    I am all for equality. Feminism is well-intentioned movement aiming for gender equality.

    Have you looked into the four waves of feminism? If not, please do. Feminism is not a monolith. The first two waves were reasonable but third and fourth wave got out of hand.

     

    I believe it’s not a zero-sum game between Asian feminists and AM; gender equality is not contradictory to Asian well-being.

    On paper, yes, but in practice, there has been a gender war, where extremely misguided/brainwashed Asian women have been indoctrinated to see Asian men as their enemies and White males as liberators. Their entire platform is

    ● The right to date White
    ● To not be fetishsized
    ● Blame everything on the Asian man

     

    I believe Asian feminists have better chance to reach a win-win situation when cooperating with AM than with WM.

    They had decades. Look at what they achieved. Be realistic.

     

    Due to some reasons, the difference lies in AF are more tolerant to men from different culture than WF.

    It’s not tolerant. Do you see AF dating anything besides WM? Why is it almost only WM? This is not tolerance.

     

    The greatest assets are AF and AM who are willing to dig into the problem, speak out, work together to find a solution, and hand-in-hand build a better future.

    Yes, but not all AF, only those who are pro-Asian and pro-Am. That’s a key distinction. Anti-Asian, anti-Am, pro-white, pro-WM are not part of this community. The latter group have been key to our destruction.


  • administrators

    @CivilRightsAZN

    Excuse me for my rant. This is anger section, isn’t it?

    No. This belongs in general. You made some interesting points. Worth discussing further.


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